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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
 Posted - 26/03/2010 : 00:46:53
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Rather than keeping posting in introductions I figured I would start a sort of journal thread in here about Froggy, our young White's tree frog.
I'll start by describing the equipment we have:-
45x45x45cm Exo Terra terrarium
14 watt Reptile One heat matt
Lucky Reptile Thermo Control II
Exo Terra dial thermometer
Exo Terra dial hygrometer
Orchid bark substrate (we will be replacing this with coco husk type substrate soon, as Froggy is nearing a size where he/she could possibly ingest this)
Large piece of cork bark for a vertical hide placed from top back left corner to bottom front right corner (I want to replace this with a nice wood branch, Froggy doesn't seem keen on walking on the bark)
Turtle dock currently in there as a horizontal hide
Lighting is currently a 3 x 8watt T5 unit made by Boyu. It's a small overtank unit intended for nano fish tanks, containing 3 6,500 kelvin tubes.
When we first set it up we were using the dried sphagnum moss that comes in bricks (re hydrated naturally. lol), however I soon discovered that this can be really bad for frogs, so have removed most of it and I am using moss from my shrimp tanks in there (I have all sorts of mosses, Xmas, Java, Creeping, spiky, willow, dwarf riccia (ok that's a liverwort, but heh), phoenix... it grows VERY fast for me, so even when it dies it's no real problem). I also have an order in for a frog moss pack and a creeping ficus (not sure how well that will stand up to a White's but I wanted to give it a go.).
Feeding wise I started out only having mini mealworms, and Froggy was eating about 3 every 2-3 days. Now however I finally have crickets, and Froggy has become a LOT more hungry. They are quite small crickets but he ate about 4 earlier, along with 3 mini mealworms. He WONT be getting fed that much as a matter of habit. lol We were concerned he hadn't been eating well, as until today he had been hiding constantly under the turtle dock. He has now taken up residence on top of the background, and is most definitely eating, too much if we let him.  He's learned that the planting tweezers (I ended up with 2 sets of these, so 1 pair have been pressed into service for feeding Froggy) mean food, and will snatch at ANYTHING we push towards him with them! I accidentally squished a cricket earlier whilst trying to catch it, no bother for Froggy as the minute I pushed it towards him with the tweezers nom, it was gone! I can see now where White's get their reputations for been greedy from! He was quite skinny when we got him (very young, definitely underfed, looked like a green dart frog in shape) so I was pleased to see that today he has the more rounded shape you expect of a White's.  No supplements yet, but the crickets had been fed since yesterday on lettuce, cabbage and some apple. We have now also given the mini meal worms some Chinese leaf, which they have devoured at speed! Gotta keep an eye on my wife though, she's a bit of an overfeeder if I don't watch her, even the crickets and mealworms are at risk of becoming rather overfed. I have some Sandfire Superfoods cricket food on it's way to me (which I believe is a good one) for occasional feeding to the crickets, as well as some Komodo Amphibian insect dusting powder and Komodo Calcium plus vitamins dusting powder ordered. I believe though that I only need to lightly dust about 1 or 2 feeds per week with one of these? I ordered both so I could see what was in them. lol
The lighting is also getting replaced. Also on order I have an ExoTerra Compact double hood, 26 watt Exo Terra ReptiGlo 2 and ReptiGlo 5 bulbs to go into this. I know that books etc say that White's don't need the UVB, however I have also read that opinion is increasing that it is beneficial for them, hence the 5, and the 2 should help with future live plant growth and viewing.
Also on order we have 3 more White's tree frogs. Hopefully they aren't tiny when they arrive, when I ordered them it wouldn't have mattered as much, but Froggy has grown since, he/she is about 25% larger now than when we bought him/her. I have also come to learn that our 45x45x45 terrarium would be better suited to 1 pair rather than 2, however we are quite willing to upgrade it to something larger, clean it out thoroughly and then reuse it for perhaps a pair of Vietnamese blue tree frogs. We plan to put some garage shelving in our 'multi purpose' room (it's supposed to be a dining room, but we need storage and space for our critters more, we're used to eating using trays sat on our laps. lol), so space wont be so much of a problem as it was when I bought the terrarium last week.
Now to a question. The heat mat is a 14 watt Reptile One model, attached to a Lucky Reptile Thermo Control II thermostat which doubles as a thermometer, and backed up with an Exo Terra dial thermometer. The care sheet here says minimum temperature of 25 degrees Celsius is advised for these frogs, and I have the Thermo Control II set to 27 degrees Celsius, however it NEVER reaches this temperature, either on the Thermo Control II or the thermometer, the most it reaches is 26 degrees, and that is ONLY with all 3 tubes turned on so that it's getting heat from the lighting, and it drops to about 23.8 to 24 degrees Celsius at night. As such, I am pretty sure that the heat mat isn't up to the task, but basically I am looking for confirmation that I need to replace this? Froggy is currently perching RIGHT in front of where the heat mat is stuck to the back of the viv, suggesting that things really aren't warm enough in there far enough into the viv. I am thinking of ordering a 20 watt Habistat mat (17 inches by 11 inches), what do you folks reckon? At the end of the day it will be on a thermostat, so the risk of overheating his viv is much lower than the risk we currently have of under-heating it, and I have read good things about the Habistat mats.
Anyway, if anybody has any thoughts on any of this, please do feel free to post them. I happily admit that amphibians are new to me, and I am happy to learn. I'm a fast learner though, so try to keep up.
Ade
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 26/03/2010 : 00:48:27
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| PS nearly forgot to mention, we are maintaining the humidity at between 60 and 70 on the hygrometer using light misting with bottled water. |
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Kazerella
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
969 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2010 : 11:35:23
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It all sounds good, although I wouldn't gut-load with lettuce very often as it's not very nutrious. Try getting some dandelion leaves out of the garden because they are high in calcium too  Plus try and introduce earthworms because they are a good all-rounder for most 'phibs.
I would up the temp on the thermostat and see if the temps raise up. You should judge the temps solely on the reading on the thermometer in the tank rather than the number on the dial because stats aren't always that acccurate. It might take a few days to adjust it until it's just right. |
 
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2010 : 16:37:48
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My stat doesn't have a dial. lol It's one of the digital ones with a probe and a thermometer built in, with a dial thermometer at the opposite side and toward the front, whilst the probe is the other side and nearer the back, heat mat is fixed to the back of the terrarium as I saw advised for arboreal species. I trust digital thermometers about as far as I can throw them usually, but I checked this one with an anologue as well, and it's pretty spot on. Not sure upping the setting on there will help much though, as the low temps are when the thermostat actually has the mat turned on, it only seems to be able to heat to about 1.5 degrees Celsius above ambient though, which means that in 'normal' weather, without heat from the lighting as well, it only just reaches about 24-25 degrees Celsius. Hence my thinking that we need a better, more powerful, heat mat.
I will certainly use some dandelion leaves, we were using the lettuce as it's what we had in at the time. My wife is pleased to hear she can stop feeding them her salad.
Worms, not an option yet. We have a garden but not a single garden tool. lol We moved here from a 1st floor flat, and are slowly getting all the stuff we now need, so far we have a compost bin. That should prove a useful source of worms one day. |
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2010 : 17:28:22
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Just to add, new light arrived and has been put in place. Combining a repti glo 2 and a repti glo 5 leads to a strange effect, but will be worth it if it helps my frog (hopefully be frogs soon, if the place I ordered from pulls their fingers out...) to be healthy. You can see a pic of the terrarium with the new lighting in my pics thread.
It's also helped with day time temps, the CCFL lamps give off more heat than the old T5 tubes and light fixture.
Ade |
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Kazerella
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
969 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2010 : 17:50:27
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| That's good news- what are the temps now? |
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2010 : 18:07:11
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At this very moment they are 26.2 degrees Celsius at the back near the mat and under the light, 22 degrees Celsius at the front. Mat is on, but I have taken your advice and turned the stat up to 28 degrees Celius to see if it helps.
Ade |
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lewy
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
1356 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2010 : 21:02:22
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Ade is your mat on the back of the tank, and if so are you using the exo terra background that came with the tank? If so it could be reflecting the heat back out of the tank.
I use our mat on the side of the tank with a piece of polystyrene on the outside to reflect the heat back in through the glass (on a micro climate matstat). I also have a mat under the tank to raise the humidity higher and up the temps a little more.
Prayer plants are supposed to be good for whites, their leaves are big enough and their stalks are quite sturdy to hold the weight. I've been using Monstera deliciosa (swiss cheese plant) and mine sit on the leaves most of the day, only problem is it grows fast - but it;s easy enough to trim back when it does.
Those mosses sound great and I know java will thrive under the uv if the humidity is high enough.
mature grape vine (dried and sanded) works brilliantly for them to climb on, so far mine seem to love it, way cheaper than buying some wood from a rep shop if you have room and a warm place to grow grapes
Sounds like your having fun with froggy, keep us updated |
Lewy
THE AMPHIBIAN.co.uk Team
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2010 : 21:36:12
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Indeed I am.
Yeah we have got the backround in front of the mat, drat! We started with it on the bottom and that was even worst. lol Thanks for the advice re putting it on the side and a 2nd one underneath, we had considered a 2nd mat, and now I will go ahead and order another. Not buying it locally as all they have are the Exo Terra ones or the other shop has Reptile One ones. Oh and yes, we need some extra help with the humidity, since adding the light we only just keep it above 50, despite misting about 3 times a day.
First lot of live plants arrived today, 1 though was a mistake and as Froggy grows will have to be moved. It's a diddy little creeping ficus, which I can imagine a grown White's trashing. Also got some moss though, some nice pillow moss that I really like, more dratting java moss (lol) and some sheet moss. I can see only the pillow doing well in there, the Java may be ok though as the stuff I put out of shrimp tank is doing quite well, we just make sure it gets sprayed at misting times. I popped some willow moss in there in his/her moss bowl as well, which should over time happily re-adjust to terrestrial growth. Most aquarium moss is actually terrestrial and does much better out of water, as you likely know. lol Newly ordered also is some pothos vine, inch plant, Cryptanthus novistar and a Neoregelia meyendorfii bromeliad which if it feels too spiky (although it's supposed to be frog safe) I will just grow as a house plant. lol I also ordered a packet of Kyoto moss spores to give a try.
On the not directly related to plants side, I ordered some eco-earth coco substrate, oak leaves, hyrdo fleece, large gravel (not pea!) as my wife insists on this rather than hydroleca, tropical spring tails and tropical woodlice. Too late with the wood advice though, but we don't have a grape vine anyway. lol I've ordered a piece of Sumatra wood (used this in one of my aquariums recently, it's really really nice safe wood) and a pigtail vine. What I will probably do is cut a piece of the current cork bark piece in there and put this in to replace the turtle dock as a horizontal hide. I hate artificial stuff, as you may have twigged by now. lol Absolutely all of my aquariums are planted with live plants, even my crayfish one.
Oh, and sorry if it seems I am a bit hung up on equipment. Once set up I'm not, but I do like to get things well set up for my animals, it's only fair. For me it's a deal, I spend money etc and provide them with an excellent habitat, they provide me with natural beauty and fascination etc. So if I sometimes come across as a bit flash with the cash, please forgive me, I know that you can do things far more cheaply, I'm just been lazy most of the time, 4 young kids can do that to you. You should see some of the kits I already have from aquariums that is going to come in very handy, such as very long plant tweezers (excellent for feeding with) and very long plant pruning scissors.
Ade |
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Kazerella
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
969 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2010 : 09:28:32
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You are spoiling froggy
We could have sent you some inch plant, it's grows like wild fire.
You'll find the plants will gets a bit of a bashing, but we have two of each of the more delicate ones and we swap them every so often so at least they get a nice rest on a window ledge when they are not in the tank |
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2010 : 17:54:21
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Cool, thanks for the tip.
Oh and if you want any moss, let me know. It will be aquatic phase, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem to reverse. The stuff grows like crazy in my tanks. Just take care to rinse it if you do have any off me, I used ferts including Easycarbo which can be quite toxic. I have dwarf riccia growing like mad again as well. lol
Ade |
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2010 : 23:47:37
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I am really worried now. The folks we ordered the other 3 White's from have chosen TODAY to send them! Ok so it's TNT by 12 shipping, I only hope they are well insulated and have a good heat pack, else poor things will be frogcicles. :( Same for the tropical woodlice and springtales yes, but I wont be quite as upset about them.
Ade |
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 00:46:38
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I was right to worry, 1 of the 3 didn't make it sadly, poor little one. :( The other 2 had climbed onto the plastic of the container they came in, the 3rd had however tunneled into the rather wet sphagnum moss that they had in with them. I think that with the cold, the water in the sphagnum just acted as a heatsink, draining the poor little things body heat all the faster. The other 2 however seem to have recovered from their ordeal (touch wood!), they are feeding and 1 of them is rather forward already. lol They are both lovely looking frogs of pretty much the same size as Froggy, but different colours. We are going to let them rest for a couple of days before we do the terrarium improvements, they have been through enough as it is I reckon for now. Tomorrow I will try to get a better look at the newbies, see if I can distinguish them enough to give them names. For now though they are Hippety and Hoppety (Hip and Hop for short. lol), which is which remains to be set. If I can I will also try to get pics so long as I can do so without stressing them.
The dwarf woodlice didn't make it either, quite dead. The tropical springtails however are quite alive, and so many of them! Should be able to instantly get them going as custodian crew when we do implement the planned changes to their terrarium. The Sumatra wood is rather dissapointing though, it's TINY! The medium pieces I have from an aquatics store are huge in comparison, the price is similar, in that I paid nearly £15 for this new piece from an amphibians supplier, where the pieces I have in one of my aquariums were £8 each... The moral, for wood go to a fish place. lol The pigtail vine however is really really nice, although will need cutting to fit. That's good though, means I will have some for the next terrarium I am planning. ;)
Oh and the dusting powder finally arrived, just as I had ordered some tree frog specific stuff from the superfoods range.... lol
Plants, well I don't think I am going to use the larger bromeliad, the leaves are rather sharply serrated despite it been one listed on many sites as frog safe. The smaller bromeliad however should be ok, still serrated but doesn't feel half as stiff and sharp. Pothos looks like it is lacking either nitrogen or magnesium, not sure how I can safely supplement these though in a froggy terrarium. With any luck the bottled water I use will contain enough magnesium, and frog wastes enough nitrogen (indirectly as ammonia. lol). Instead of the larger bromeliad, we are going to use the large dracena that my wife purchased in Asda, just treat it first with white spirit vinegar and water. My wife also bought a parasol plant, but I need to research this more before I even consider it. For one thing my parents had one that grew to about 15 feet tall.... It was at the bottom of the stairs, bent at the ceiling and then went up the stair ceiling. Plus the research I have done there is no mention of it been frog safe.
Indirectly related, I ordered 4 bays of garage racking today. If we can we are going to put 2 bays in our 'animal room' (we don't see the point in dining rooms. lol), 2 shelves on one been dedicated to terrarium use. :D My wife is nicking the rest for storage, if not just 1 in there, still 2 shelves for terrariums. The ones we can't fit will go into one of our brick sheds (we have 4, one an ex oustide toilet, one a real potting shed with a window, and 2 storage sheds. lol) to store stuff on. When you have 4 kids and a wife who was a hamster in a previous life, storage becomes very important. lol
Anyway, looking on the brighter side of things, 3 White's tree frogs is plenty in a 45x45x45cm Exo Terra. I thought I was been conservative thinking 4 as the chap in our local shop recommended it as big enough for 6.... I somehow don't think so. lol The place I got my frogs from this time instantly credited my store account for the frog lost in transit, all they asked for was a photograph of it on it's back, and they didn't quible at all once I sent this. I will use the credit for more equipment for future froggy projects. At the moment I am liking Vietnamese blue tree frogs and cinammon tree frogs, need to wait and see what's available when we come to buy though. Definitely not risking poison dart frogs, not with 3 young children, 2 dogs and a cat....
You know, I suspect I may be hooked on frogs...
Ade |
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lewy
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
1356 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 11:59:26
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Sad about the lost little one  - I would quarantine the others though for a few months before introducing them to the tank - things like red-leg can stay hidden and would take the lot out. I always quarantine in a different room just to be safe.
I know Dunelm Mill is good for small bits of wood - we got some bargain wood for the snakes for just £1.99 maybe there's one near you?
Good luck with the new frogs, sounds like your house is going to be filled with them soon |
Lewy
THE AMPHIBIAN.co.uk Team
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Ade
Tadpole
United Kingdom
153 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 12:10:09
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Unfortunatley I don't currently have the space or equipment for quarantining new stock. Definitely can't do it in a different room, that's the only room where I can keep anything like this, the rest of the house is full of aquariums. lol Once the shelving is up I may be able to set up a terrarium for quarantine, but it is going to have to be in the same room by necessity. My wife sees the White's as hers, but no way will she allow a terrarium outside the 'animal room'. 4 children and 2 adults in a 3 bedroom house doesn't leave a lot of space. ;)
We have a Dunelm nearby yes, however I don't like how that wood looks. ;)
Ade |
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Kazerella
The Amphibian Administrator
United Kingdom
969 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 10:19:20
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Poor frog and woodlice - I wonder why they sent it on such a cold day. Most suppliers wouldn't risk it.
I thought Dracena was a safe plant, but not 100% sure now you've put doubt in my mind  Will have to have a look in my notes.
Poison darts aren't poisonous in captivity. They get their toxins from the ants and insects they eat in the rainforest, so captive frogs don't secrete the same poisons. They are difficult to keep in micro-foods though |
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Adventures with Froggy, the White's tree frog.
